tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post6569840214094081513..comments2024-02-29T11:54:28.419+00:00Comments on Ed's Beer Site: On the origins of beerEdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-52890827320644679552017-07-06T22:26:13.738+01:002017-07-06T22:26:13.738+01:00Excellent, thanks!Excellent, thanks!Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-10030492541869908652017-07-02T16:20:52.461+01:002017-07-02T16:20:52.461+01:00https://brewingbeerthehardway.wordpress.com/2017/0...https://brewingbeerthehardway.wordpress.com/2017/02/12/un-aerated-steeping-part-1/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-31069680866984558232017-07-01T10:34:28.037+01:002017-07-01T10:34:28.037+01:00The steeping part with air rests is just the the i...The steeping part with air rests is just the the imbibification, where the grain takes up sufficient water to begin the germination process. When the maltster judges the grain to be wet enough, it is turned out onto the malting floor. Or, if you are a Norwegian farmhouse maltster, onto a wooden tray in the malt house. Lars Garshol's work has uncovered the traditional ways of doing these things and they probably go back thousands of years. The ethnography, if you like to call it that, but I prefer traditional and probably ancient. Merryn Dineleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01790657870013734205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-18190619939555969132017-07-01T10:28:56.056+01:002017-07-01T10:28:56.056+01:00It's making the the malt that interests me mos...It's making the the malt that interests me most. Specialist malts are, as you know, a recent thing (roasting and toasting are c300 years old, Industrial Revolution etc) but the knowledge of how to make base malt has been around for thousands of years, since the so called Neolithic Revolution.Merryn Dineleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01790657870013734205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-75744605198614320802017-07-01T09:30:02.740+01:002017-07-01T09:30:02.740+01:00Interesting stuff Merryn, I knew this would be up ...Interesting stuff Merryn, I knew this would be up your street! Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-62553317694336611322017-07-01T09:27:27.653+01:002017-07-01T09:27:27.653+01:00I've never tried malting with continuous steep...I've never tried malting with continuous steeping, but hving air rests in steeping really only dates from the 1950s. I'd better have a look at Stopes...Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-55695631341798218782017-06-30T22:57:01.847+01:002017-06-30T22:57:01.847+01:00I reckon the malt sugars came first, before either...I reckon the malt sugars came first, before either bread or beer. Around twelve thousand years ago people discovered that partially germinated grain would make something sweet when gently heated with water. You have to make the sugars before you can make the ale or beer. Malted grain can supply all the necessary sugars for alcoholic fermentation, you don't need to add fruit or honey. <br /><br />There is some interesting archaeological evidence of early grain processing at a site near Lake Galilee, Ohalo II, c23,000 years ago, where they may have been making some sweet barley cakes/bread/bappir from malted grain. However, it is hard to know for sure. <br /><br />More substantial archaeological evidence is that they were making malt on the smooth, level earthen, clay or lime plaster floors at the earliest agricultural settlements in the Fertile Crescent around ten to twelve thousand years ago. Malting floors are for large scale production. So they must have worked out how to partially germinate grain and make fermentable malt sugars before then. <br /><br />I did some experimental archaeology, making sugars from crushed malted barley on a hot stone by the fire (as a sort of cake of biscuit) and I've also have mashed successfully in a simple earthenware bowl. Merryn Dineleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01790657870013734205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-23806560568259060712017-06-30T22:34:46.108+01:002017-06-30T22:34:46.108+01:00This is all very interesting to me. Who were the f...This is all very interesting to me. Who were the first maltsters? Last year I went to a meeting/seminar with maltsters and brewers at the Highland Park Distillery (part of the Orkney Science Festival). They explained that grain is a living thing, that it will drown if left in a bucket of water. Grain needs both water and oxygen to begin the germination process. It must have air rests. The steep tanks at the Maltings do this, the water is drained at regular intervals and the steeped grain is left to aerate for several hours before fresh water is added. This effectively imitates the traditional technique of leaving grain in a bag in a stream. I wrote up this malting seminar, it's on my ancient malt and ale page "a morning with maltsters". Long time ago I read the malting section in Bewley and Black's book "Seeds:physiology of development and germination" and they say the same thing. Oxygen and water.They explain the biochemistry and physiology behind it too. Fascinating stuff. germination. <br /><br />The 'grain was left in a bucket' theory does not work. Merryn Dineleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01790657870013734205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-29090433278677571692017-06-30T18:51:08.971+01:002017-06-30T18:51:08.971+01:00Yes, I can well see early malting arising. Green m...Yes, I can well see early malting arising. Green malt is not a million miles away from bean sprouts, and is much more paletable than unmalted grains. Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-62799765408693909872017-06-30T18:41:27.704+01:002017-06-30T18:41:27.704+01:00Just got me thinking. It's become quite trendy...Just got me thinking. It's become quite trendy among the "healthy" food crowd to let lentils and other things germinate for some time before eating. I wonder if early agricultural peoples did something like that, and then cooked the stuffPivnĂ Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05525892820409340027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-1169133833904891832017-06-30T18:38:28.691+01:002017-06-30T18:38:28.691+01:00I agree, some sort of porridge seems a more plausi...I agree, some sort of porridge seems a more plausible starting point to me. And if the grains were malted it wouldn't even need to have been boiled. Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-8280100771431666492017-06-30T18:35:41.445+01:002017-06-30T18:35:41.445+01:00I can certainly see green malt being made accident...I can certainly see green malt being made accidentally like that, but I still think that if it was left longer it would just go mouldy. Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-51988272351964542152017-06-30T18:34:38.497+01:002017-06-30T18:34:38.497+01:00Yes, if you go back far enough fruit/grain/honey/...Yes, if you go back far enough fruit/grain/honey/whatever seem to have been used together which could have some interesting results. Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-10502817507754342932017-06-30T18:29:11.275+01:002017-06-30T18:29:11.275+01:00I can see something like that working, but obvious...I can see something like that working, but obviously it has a boiling stage. Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13844169940650659196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-39594199547533862542017-06-30T18:01:51.781+01:002017-06-30T18:01:51.781+01:00My theory is that at least somewhere, at some poin...My theory is that at least somewhere, at some point (because beer isn't like the light bulb that someone invented and then it spread, it will have to have been "invented" at different times and places by different peoples) someone was cooking a porridge of crushed grain flavoured with berries and/or honey and/or whatever else they had at hand, forgot about it and either the yeast in the fruit started to ferment or maybe <a href="http://www.pivni-filosof.com/2014/10/on-beer-and-flies-that-love-it.html" rel="nofollow">fruit flies brought them</a>. PivnĂ Filosofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05525892820409340027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-996643912971064372017-06-30T16:52:51.041+01:002017-06-30T16:52:51.041+01:00Isn't it possible that unmalted grains left to...Isn't it possible that unmalted grains left to soak in the water would eventually germinate, at least partially? Like lentils or beans left in a humid environment for too long. Then saccs would take care of the sugars fermentations and some wild yeast could even ferment some starches.Frankhttp://www.brewingbad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-44046489232550702302017-06-30T12:47:22.563+01:002017-06-30T12:47:22.563+01:00One thing I've been thinking is that the worki...One thing I've been thinking is that the working assumption is that the drink needed to be all grain beer. If you go back only a few centuries fields would have been sown with blends of grains. I wonder if blends of various fermentables might have been brewed, too. Perhaps the enzymes were provided by a different material than malt.Alan McLeodhttp://agoodbeerblog.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2558050635605413616.post-59027628214501065342017-06-30T08:43:54.319+01:002017-06-30T08:43:54.319+01:00Lars Garshol was talking about brewing with 100% r...Lars Garshol was talking about brewing with 100% raw grain. Mashing and then boiling the mash. Maybe there where some microorganisms in the domesticated yeast slurry that where starch converters (like koji in japan). I mean if you throw a mixed culture long enough at a starchy liquid they will evolve to a certain degree.<br /><br />Cheers<br />BenediktBenedikt Rauschhttp://wilder-wald.comnoreply@blogger.com