After the seeing Stonch talk about the horrors of haze it saddens me that the subject of sour slinked into my Saturday last week. Whilst at The Rake one of my friends made the mistake of ordering a draught saison.
Instead of spicy smell of esters and phenols this beer had the unmistakable aroma of acetic acid. "Yes, definitely vinegar" I agreed, "take it back". As I'm used to an enlightened attitude to beer being returned nowadays I was unimpressed to see craft beer is now an excuse for attitudes to cask beer to go back a couple of decades. "It's meant to taste like that" was the response, though the excuse was "it's a saison" instead of the old "it's real ale". Now clearly this is bollocks, I mean Saison Dupont ain't bleedin' sour is it?
It also highlights another problem. Giving the bloke in The Rake the benefit of the doubt, and assuming he was just ignorant and not fobbing my mate off, bars really shouldn't sell sour beer without clearly labelling it as deliberately sour. Just most people wouldn't want to get served yeast soup when they order a pint so most people would prefer to get beer not Sarsons.
Aaaargh!
ReplyDeleteEverybody repeat after me:
Cask beer comes out cloudy if it hasn’t been allowed to settle properly, and this is a fault – even if the beer is ‘meant to be cloudy’.
Cask beer goes sour when it goes off, and this is a fault – even if the beer is ‘meant to be sour’.
Hate the Rake. Bar staff there always remind me of the cool cats who stood behind the Beggars Banquet record store counter of my youth, raising an eyebrow at your purchase. Despite that being a quarter of a century ago they dress exactly the same too.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of whether it's supposed to taste like that or not the correct response is, of course, to just replace the beer. And probably to let the brewer have some constructive feedback.
Acetic sours... pfffft... I hate them. More and more of the "wild" and similar crazy-ingredient beers I try have an acetic twang. Nobody seems to care. Or see it as a flaw. So who am I to judge... maybe it's just a compound I'm sensitive to. (As opposed to being less sensitive to diacetyl than I'd like to be.)
ReplyDeletePhil you're being narrow minded and dogmatic. Fortunately your views shall soon be consigned to history.
ReplyDeletePhil and I - I like to think - have been banging on about this for ages. Nowadays we are up against a problem that nobody really knows what some beers should taste like and they have already excuse just to tell you "It's meant to be like that".
ReplyDeleteThings can only get worse when there is so much poor beer being produced and sold as "Something".
And as far as I know, acetic acid has no place in beer.
That's my view w.r.t to acetic... but then folk say to me: ahhhh, but Duchesse de Bourgogne and "Flanders sours"... as if this absolves all acetic sins. If it said Flanders/Flemish on the label or "old bruin"/etc then OK, I know what I am in for, but if not it should in some other way declare its acetic nature. People can brew whatever old crap they want, but as a consumer I want to be able to make an informed choice - or at least taste a sample first. I don't think beer ought to be dumbed down to protect the consumer - but I think PoS needs to be improved drastically - primarilly in the area of service & staff knowledge (without hubris).
DeletePeople (bars) also need to be more prepared to simply tell a brewer a beer is crap sometimes. Or give back _any_ mildy negative feedback - it was OK, but for a beer sold as super-hoppy, on a scale of zero to Oakham Citra, it was about a 1. (Brewer says: but I can't afford to make beers like that... to which you say: well don't sell them as if they ought to be.)
No Brit-Acetic ales I've come across have anything near the finesse of Duchesse de Bourgogne. And mostly I suspect they're acetic by mistake. I've had some that were only grim in one or two batches. (Always wild/sour/saison type beers of various types, usually with odd stuff added - and would be right up my alley but for the acetic.)
(I've tried, but - heathen that I am - I cannot enjoy Duchesse de Bourgogne... but it's super-highly rated, and hey, y'all like vinegar on your chips so I can see how I'm an outlier, I fucking despise vinegar on chips.)
I know of at least one brewery that attempted to sell an unsuccessful gyle of pale ale as a “wild beer.”
DeleteDuchesse de Bourgogne is only fit to be put on chips. I suppose there are some beer styles that you could accept some acetic acid but even with lambics I saw a Belgian beer consultant bad mouth Cantillon because the acetic level in their beers was so high.
DeleteWhether you personally like them or not, DdB and Flemish Reds in general are a well established and accepted thing, so it's clearly bollocks to say that acetic just shouldn't exist in beer. The question is when and how you need to warn the customer that they're getting something out of the ordinary.
DeleteObviously expecting people to expect vinegar when they order saison is wrong on all levels, but would you expect to have to warn someone that DdB or an Geuze Boon is sour? Would the answer be different in the Rake vs somewhere less geeky? I know plenty of people who'd be pissed off to order a pint of Oakham Citra and not be warned that it tastes of "cat's pee", so should that be on the pump clip too?
I support the existence of critters like "Flemish Reds"... there is a tradition behind them, and they have their advocates. I can even almost drink them if served ice cold and I have a blocked nose. ;) Those that like 'em can keep 'em...
DeleteAs you say - in a beer marked as a saison: no.
As for Oakham: I personally would prefer to see more bars put up a brief descriptor, most will offer a taste at least, and I do kind of like the little jars for colour indication. Also not sure whether "cat's pee" is all that useful :)
I have been warned on ordering bottled sours/etc in nerdy bars. This is, I think, as it should be. Such bottles are usually a bit heavy on the wallet as it is. (Some minority of nerds seem to get upset at such warnings... as if their serious beer drinker credentials are being questioned. I just see it as great customer service.)
I like Rodenbach, in fact I had a bottle last night, but Duchess de Balsamic isn't for me. It's a bit hard to decide where to draw the line for how much you should warn people but I'd be more pissed off with unknowingly buying vinegar than I would be being warned before buying lambics.
DeleteI had a bretted PA the other week which tasted absolutely foul - it literally reminded me of drinking vinegar - and made me ill the next day. Kegged, too, although I'm assuming it was KK & had actually gone off in the keg. The trouble with some of these experimental beers is that nobody knows what it's "supposed" to taste like, from the brewer on down.
ReplyDeleteQuality is as much the Achilles heel of craft beer in general as it is of cask beer in particular. And at least with cask beer if it's cloudy or sour most places will swap it for you.
ReplyDeleteI'm totally confused. I've just read, from a freelance cheesemonger, that craft brewers have an OBSESSION with consistency; and must be freed from it by cheesemakers.
ReplyDelete(Craft beer and artisansal cheese, you see, really aren't very different at all. In fact, they are "mystically intertwined". I've had beer cheese: could you point me to a cheese beer?)
I have had cheesy beer, old hops can get a cheesy flavour. Personally I think craft brewers aren't obsessed enough with consistency and indeed quality.
DeleteMost Flemish reds are not supposed to be acetic either. Rudi at rodenbach was at pains to point out the speciality caramalts with high reductive potential to mop up stray oxygen in the beer. Should be lactic not acetic. Duchesse noticeably more acetic recently
ReplyDeleteThink there's a whole post in the disguising of failed beers as "experimental" or BA instead of tipping it away...and why wouldn't you try to rescue a failed batch...Maybe even charge a premium...what could have been a disaster becomes a money spinner
Steve
Wonder if anyone actually targets acetic notes thanks to the BJCP... :) Can you imagine someone deliberately putting acetobacter into a beer...
Deletehttp://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style17.php#1c
Personally little against releasing a mucked about with "failed" beer if, the brewer, in their heart of hearts, believes what they have released has value beyond helping the bottom line. The market will soon enough judge whether they're takign the piss and should be relegated. Folk will reject the beer, the pub will be left with half a cask, the pub may not buy from the brewery again.
Maybe I don't know the difference between lactic and acetic? Well I think I do but vinegar in beer? I'm a fan of lambics and guezes. Maybe I just don't "get" sour.
ReplyDeleteI hope so.